'I've always been concerned with kindness. Just not in my comedy.'
He outraged America at the Golden Globes and his sitcom is as loathed as it is liked. That's fine with me, Ricky Gervais tells Stephanie Marsh
In a sombre Soho basement a selection of Britain's pop-cultural taste-makers settle into their seats, ready to assess season 2 of the confusing Ricky Gervais comedy vehicle Derek.
Before the lights dim, the head of Channel 4 comedy says a few words.
Gervais, he informs the assembled critics, "has a lot to say."(He doesn't say what.)
And there Derek/Gervais is, on the big screen, with the same greasy fronds stuck to his forehead, the same underbite, the same simple literal-mindedness that caused some people, when the first series originally aired, to describe it as "life-affirming".
Others claimed that, in Derek, the Berkshire-born comedian was poking fun at people with learning difficulties. (He'd also used the word "mong" on Twitter). Later, when he began to accessorise his Twitter feed with pictures of himself in the bath, the same people accused him of doing so while covertly pulling a "mong face".
How much do Gervais and David Brent--- the self-regarding middle manager he played in The Office---- resemble one another? Contemporary opinion holds that they're more or less the same person. It has become fashionable to say of the breakthrough Noughties mockumentary, "Ah, but that was mostly [co-writer] Stephen Merchant", now that Gervais has become such a big star. Arrogant, prideful, foe of fat people and the disabled? Or genius, comedic revolutionary and one of the most influential figures of our times?
There are a lot of people on the internet arguing about who Gervais is: has he had his teeth whitened and become "one of them"ie, American? (Gervais bought a home in New York several years ago with his partner Jane Fallon, though they live in London). Is he a "bully" who picks on his warm-up acts? Is he "mean"(see his baiting of Hollywood stars as host of the Golden Globes from 2010-2012)? Has he "gone too far" (See his atheist tweets)? Everyone agrees he's made a lot of money.
Two hours later, whoever the real Ricky Gervais might be, he sits before me, teeth an off-white colour, mood upbeat, joyous even "Tee-hee". "Haha!" He is full to bursting with screeching laughter and pugnacious opinion. At the age of 52, he's the boy at the front of the class with his hand up and the right answer, desperate to be picked by the teacher. He's the boy at the back of the class sniggering at the boy at the front. At the teacher. At the concept of school.
I start with: "The head of Channel 4 comedy said you have something important to say. What is it?"
"You'll have to ask him. Um" Already Gervais is shaking with mirth. "I think everyone would agree I've got a lot to say. Er. Heee. Heee!" Giggling now, he splutters: "Some would say, Shut the f*** up, ypu've said enough!"
He's talked in the past about the theme of kindness in Derek. Perhaps he hopes that Derek will make people nicer.
"What's Derek for?" I ask.
"It's for my entertainment, and hopefully some other people's. What do you mean, 'What is it for?' It's a good question, though. Because, because, because." He explodes with happy laughter.
"That's great, actually, because when somebody makes a table you wouldn't say: 'What's it for?'. That's perfect! You say, 'Well it's a table.' Whereas if anyone asks what your programme's for----f*** knows! I mean, it's to watch! It's to laugh and make you live longer."
Gervais has stopped giggling. He's suddenly utterly sober. "Um. I worry. It's a very highfalutin stance to take as someone writing TV comedy to talk about your achievements like a doctor would. There's been no change of heart in my outlook. You do things that are studies."
The Office, he says, was about comedy; men as boys and women as adults. "How you're body-snatched by trivia and if someone doesn't let you borrow their pen you think, how trivial, but in three weeks you won't let them borrow your pen to get them back. About how arbitrary a job is, how you're thrown together. The bigger themes were, mid-life crisis, fame, TV itself. Boy meets girl. Making a difference. But that doesn't answer the question, what's it for? What it was for was to give me money and awards. Hee-hee!"He corrects himself sternly: "That's not true."
Besides "genius", the word most often used to describe him is "mean". "Do I think I was mean at the Golden Globes? No. And relative to what? What's 'mean'? Mean is telling a child they'll go to hell if they're gay. Right? Me having a go at the poster for Sex and the City being over airbrushed, that's not mean. That's pointing out what everyone saw. I mean, 'mean'? I've always been concerned with kindness. I just didn't put it into my comedy."
Thinking back on it, the oddest thing about the Golden Globes "situation", he says, "was that they didn't realise it would be a roast". But what did they expect?
"There are many comedians who will turn down the chance to do what they want in front of 200 million people. So I made a decision: do I pander to the 200 egos in the room or the 200 million people watching at home? No contest. Having said that, I don't think I was particularly cruel. Everything I did was considered. Plus I think you've got to be able to say to someone's face what you'd say behind their back."
Phillip Berk, the former president of the Globes, recently revealed that a "major Hollywood star" complained to him personally about Gervais's "roasting".
"I know who he was!" Gervais volunteers proudly.
And? "I'm not telling you. Because it's not fair, he'd be very embarrassed." He grins. "Are you upset that I'm not going to gossip? It was someone who thought that the general public is only there to praise them for all the good they've done."
Did he say sorry? "I responded by saying. 'Sorry I've been invited back,'"
Gervais is quivering with amusement.
"Listen, everyone allowed to get their feelings hurt. No one wants to be the butt of the joke but I didn't say anything that was unfair or untrue. It was in the papers that Charlie Sheen got drunk. It was in the papers that Robert Downey Jr was arrested and went to the Betty Ford clinic. And I made a joke. Do you see?
"People, when they justify their feelings being hurt, say it's objectively speaking, 'offensive' and it's not. Their feelings are personal. They merge the target of the joke with the subject of the joke. For example, Kim what's her name?" "Cattrall?" "Yeah. This is the joke I made: 'I'm surprised that the special effects award didn't go to whoever airbrushed that Sex and the City 2 poster.' Girls, we know how old you are. One of you was in an episode of Bonanza. She said it's ageist. I say it's the opposite. I'm saying, 'Why do you have to go for that paradigm of beauty that you have to be 25 years old and a leading lady? What's up with being 50? What's wrong with it? I'm pointing out something they tried to hide, and made a joke about it."
"What's the most offensive thing that's ever been said about you?" I ask.
"The only thing that offends me is lies. Opinion dressed as opinion isn't offensive at all. If someone says: 'He's the least funny person, he never makes me laugh, I'll punch his face, he disgusts me' --- that's fine. If they say: 'I saw him eating foie gras in The Ivy...'" continues Gervais, savagely. "F***ing liar! You F***ing liar: you never did. That offends me."
We turn to the "mong" debate. Gervais apologised for "mong" but insists he never used the word with it's original meaning--- a slang term for people with Down's syndrome. He says that Derek is not a parody--he loves the character. The whole series is an ode to his extended family, most of whom work in the care sector.
"But for me to complain about criticism is like a fisherman complaining about waves." Early on in his career, "the first time a bad review came I thought, 'Doesn't matter, that's fine. Money still there? Yep. Awards still there? Yep. Whatever.' You've got to assume as many people dislike you as like you, rationally and irrationally. They're going to confuse you with your show. Derek is going to be a victim of any reputation. The other side of the coin is, because of my success, I'm going to get anything made that I want. So it's all good."
"Don't you think the fact that some people hate you has been good for your career?" I ask.
"I don't know. Maybe,"
"Isn't being disliked part of the tension that keeps people interested?"
"There's this lovely Aesop fable," he says. "A mosquito decided to apologise to the Ox for annoying it and the Ox said: 'I didn't even know you were there'."
"I think you provoke people," I suggest.
"Do I?" He challenges me to come up with some example but then interrupts himself: "Intelligent discussion sometimes frightens people. If you're confrontational and you cut to the chase, some people are taken aback by it."
"I still think it's important for your career that there are people out there who hate you," I say.
"It's not that it's important, it's inevitable. It probably has helped me in the sense that it drives you to be even more sort of honest or to fight or answer back--I think that's very important. Freedom of speech is just about our greatest gift. For me, the point of any art, even if it's as lowly as TV comedy, is to make a connection. And for me the size of the connection is probably more important than anything else---as long as you're being honest. I am aware that I polarise. I'm aware that the emotions are extreme in both directions."
There's a little silence. He returns to the subject solemnly. "To answer your question--yes. I do. Yes. I've just realised that I cherish that. The fact that my comedy or my Twitter polarises to the extreme. Yes. That's good. Because I think that means that you're doing something right."
He thinks it's important that he's not like his characters in real life. But if people are going to confuse him with David Brent or Derek, "I don't give a f*** if you know the real me or not."
Gervais is angrily remonstrating now. "People who do 'Big Brother': I just want to show the world my other side! F*** 'em! Keep your other side to you and your family. They don't deserve your other side. Who the f***! He exclaims, veering up the octaves to a falsetto: "Why do you care what some f***ing drongo, sitting at home, angry about their gout, thinks about your 'other side'? You're a millionaire. F***ing man up. You know?"
A short, considered silence. "It's funny because I used to get people to play twisted versions of themselves in Extras and I wondered why they did it, and now I know why. Because it's like an exorcism. And you want to make it worse for yourself because you think: 'If I really act the prat now, people will think, 'Well, he can't be like that in real life'--so you make it more and more extreme. You hope that the general public know that you're not really like that."
Are people who don't get his jokes stupid? "No. What I mean is, you shouldn't panic. You shouldn't go, 'Oh, I didn't write the joke right,' You've got to do it for yourself." For the moment, he's back to his joyful, happy self: "I look at it in a very Darwinian way: I'm going to do what I enjoy exactly as I want and hope that there's a place for it in the world. And at the moment there seems to be."
Derek begins on Wednesday 23rd April on Channel 4 at 10pm.
(Article copied from The Times in it's entireity.)
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